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| Final |
 Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:33 pm |
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Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 5
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Theres a key problem that this project has at the moment, and needs to be high up on your priority of things to address. The problem the majority of ryzom's loyal community has with this project is that it is being lead by someone that was asked to leave the company and later used underhand tactics to communicate with members of the community about this venture.
My question is, why should the community trust Xavier?
My advice to you would be to lay all the cards on the table as to how you came to leave us in the first place.
Above anything else, Ryzom is what the players have made of it, and at the moment the majority of the players aren't convinced.
Sure the plan you have sounds great, but you lack integrity. |
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| Final |
| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:40 pm |
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Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 5
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| Don't get me wrong. I want to believe in this project and that the intensions are good. But, i just don't and have no reason to..you know? |
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| pato |
| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:53 am |
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Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 21
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Final wrote: Theres a key problem that this project has at the moment, and needs to be high up on your priority of things to address. The problem the majority of ryzom's loyal community has with this project is that it is being lead by someone that was asked to leave the company and later used underhand tactics to communicate with members of the community about this venture.
My question is, why should the community trust Xavier?
My advice to you would be to lay all the cards on the table as to how you came to leave us in the first place.
Above anything else, Ryzom is what the players have made of it, and at the moment the majority of the players aren't convinced.
Sure the plan you have sounds great, but you lack integrity.
I would respond that the project is now much larger than Xavier. Sure, Xavier is the front man, but he isn't dictator or anything.
If the project successfully purchases Ryzom, then there will be a non-profit set up and a democratically elected body will control Ryzom's fate. No one will send in any money until the non-profit is setup and there is an elected body of people stewards who will be responsible for Ryzom. Why do you need to trust Xavier? You just need to trust the community.
The community is large enough and loud enough that it simply won't allow anything shady to happen to Ryzom. There has been enough press and light shown on this project, and enough people have become involved, that a scandal is highly improbable.
About your accusations regarding Xavier's integrity... I don't think anyone knows the full story behind how everything went down. Saying someone lacks integrity is a serious charge, you should have hard evidence before making such claims. Everything I've read so far has been whispers in the hallway and innuendo. Perhaps Xavier did some things he shouldn't have and perhaps not. We really don't know and the only thing airing dirty laundry would do right now is cause a bunch of baby-mamma-drama.
Many current and former Nevrax employees have pledged their time and a lot of money to this project. They know Xavier a lot better than you and I since they've worked with him. They've worked with him trust him, why wouldn't you? |
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| Xavier Antoviaque |
| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:01 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 390
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pato wrote: I would respond that the project is now much larger than Xavier. Sure, Xavier is the front man, but he isn't dictator or anything.
Damn, you mean I can't escape with all the pledge money? Gargl! ;p
Quote: About your accusations regarding Xavier's integrity... I don't think anyone knows the full story behind how everything went down. Saying someone lacks integrity is a serious charge, you should have hard evidence before making such claims.
Yup, I'm sorry to not be able to comment on the subject, my lay-off was secured by a non-disclosure clause, so I can't tell a thing. Let's just say there were some recurring disagreements, which led to an impossible situation. |
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Xavier. |
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| nils |
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:22 am |
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Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
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Xavier Antoviaque wrote:
Damn, you mean I can't escape with all the pledge money? Gargl! ;p
I hear the Bahamas are nice. ;) |
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http://nils.jeppe.de |
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| sdahan |
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:22 am |
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Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 68
Location: Tsukuba, Japon
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Final wrote: My question is, why should the community trust Xavier?
By Xavier, do you mean Xavier Antoviaque the ex-employee of Nevrax or the one who created this web site? Because, I have no reason ... you know ... to beleave that they are a unique person. Maybe every thing is just a big scam and Xavier Antoviaque is victim of identity theif. Maybe every identity that was used to post on this thread are own by a unique guy.
In computer security, and I think in security in general, when we trust something, we have to balance risks and benefits.
The risk are simple:
- bad image for the comunity
- ryzom can be killed by "Xavier"
- we lost the money that we trust "Xavier" with
The benefits are also simple
- the french Ryzom community has enought skillful and dedicated members to run the game and probably to improve it. So if we share what we do, good things can happend.
- if we do not trust him, the game will probably die because there is nobody else that we can trust. (I consider no other compagny can give a new life to Ryzom).
[/quote]Sure the plan you have sounds great, but you lack integrity.[/quote]
Oups, this was a hairy troll and I didn't see it. However the first question is legitimate and personnaly, the trust that I give to Xavier Antoviaque is limited: I trust him to do what it said, but I do not trust him with my house. But if you have some experience with open source system, you should now that we only *need* to trust him until he puts everything under some free -free like freedom- licences. And yes, because this is a troll I not going to explain how open source project are thrustworthy. |
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| tenshu |
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:27 am |
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Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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the fact that ryzom will be under GPL and Creative Commons is enough
It is both a guaranty of integrety and freedom
There isn't divergent intrest between free software supporters and ryzom players
That is why i'm getting tired to read "win over a community".
We wan't to bring freedom
What the problem with you guy?
Freedom is a simple concept it means independence not alienation
Don't feed the troll |
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| luinil |
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:13 pm |
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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I tryed (without success apparently), to defend the project on the ryzom.com forums.
You say that there isn't divergent intrest between free software supporters and ryzom players, some of the ryzom.com community does not agree.
Some are saying that we just want to purchase the code. That we don"t care of Ryzom...
But I think the only way to convince them is by proof. And we can't as we did not purchase ryzom yet...
But the danger is that some in the ryzom.org communty are trying to convince the others that we are a bad solution. Some of there would rather see Ryzom dead that dying of "xavier's little plan'
We really need to rassure them if they come here. Give them some guarenties. But there are some we have to keep secret in order to have a chance to purchase ryzom...
It's a complicated situation and there is not simple answer... |
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| Aprak |
| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:25 pm |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2006
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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luinil wrote:
But the danger is that some in the ryzom.org communty are trying to convince the others that we are a bad solution. Some of there would rather see Ryzom dead that dying of "xavier's little plan'
I'm sure you mean at Ryzom.com lol ?
luinil wrote: But there are some we have to keep secret in order to have a chance to purchase ryzom...
As much as I would want to agree on this (and I really want to see this project succeed and it's hence very tempting to "help" the situation in one direction or the other), I respectfully have to disagree ;(
IMO It's is of out most importance that we (as an organization) are as open as possible. This is the corner-stone and whole point of freedom & democracy, and if we fail here - THEN we're really in deep shait over our ears ;)
Freedom and "giving" doesn't seem to come natural for human kind, and our efforts are already scrutinized and reviewed very suspiciously. We don't want to feed that "troll".
So, by doing it the hard way we give information to the greedy bastards bidding against us - thereby making it easier for "them"? Yes - that's exactly the point. Spirit of freedom is like water, it flows the way it wants to - it's main force is balance and harmony. If we loose, we loose - opportunity will come again. If we try to cheat, then we're just another version of greed.
BUT If it's *personal* motives you really mean, we'll that's a different story. I won't tell you mine, only that it has to do with nekkid Trykerer women :D
Again, just an opinion....
P.S. Don't under estimate the force of water, when it starts moving, then there is not much able to stop it... :D D.S. |
_________________
FREEEEEEEEEEEDOM!
/Aprak
http://cea-history.blogspot.com/
http://kato.homelinux.org/~aprak/ |
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| Aprak |
| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:44 pm |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2006
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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tenshu wrote:
There isn't divergent intrest between free software supporters and ryzom players
Oh, but you're wrong Tenshu-san, there are differences - very much so indeed.
Unless we're arrogant enough to believe that *we're* the *only* community that counts or that we'll be able to "define" it as we wish, then this issue is very much valid (i'm sorry, but thats the fact).
tenshu wrote:
What the problem with you guy?
I'm crazy enough to believe in this project, and what's your's? ;) |
_________________
FREEEEEEEEEEEDOM!
/Aprak
http://cea-history.blogspot.com/
http://kato.homelinux.org/~aprak/ |
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| avaeran |
| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:17 pm |
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Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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Hello everyone! I just wanted to say that I completely agree a huge issue at the moment is the resistance of many established players to a unified community effort. The attitude of many seems to be one of inherent suspicion and hostility, which I can't understand. This project is all about the empowerment of players and the enshrinement of their rights and freedoms in enjoying the game they want, so I think there really needs to be better communication somewhere. Rather than external advertisements, maybe some community liasing is the next important step (assuming this thing still has a chance!).
Is it possible perhaps to create an easily readable list of just what the tangible changes involved in going to open source would be? As in, what exactly will be different in the subscription process, how will you access the game, will servers be increased/decreased in number in the long term, how will updates and new content be added, how will the story progress, will there be multiple 'official' releases, and so on. I've never played in an open source virtual world myself, so I'd be interested to know too. :) |
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| Aprak |
| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:18 pm |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2006
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Thank you avaeran, for taking the trouble to come over and say this. You can't imagine how much some of us appreciate it!
I know that you are far from being alone in your concerns and I fully agree in what you say.
There's no good excuse for this Mexican stand-point.
I'm however not sure we can deliver your request right now. At the moment most of us are busting our butts with various choirs. |
_________________
FREEEEEEEEEEEDOM!
/Aprak
http://cea-history.blogspot.com/
http://kato.homelinux.org/~aprak/ |
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| Narf |
| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:16 pm |
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Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 42
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Well i can give a try.
Clearly here are the changes the proposal plan said
(Keep in mind that this is not the current plan, since we can't have the detail of the proposal that is going to be presented (it would be stupid to show our concurent the content of what we are proposing). The new plans is in the hands of some "majors", not all of us know about it, it's a secret we have to bear if we want to have any chances to win )
- First of all, the entity owning the code, whose name will be RyzoNel, will be a company with three associates :
--the Mekensleep company (whos president is Olivier Lejade, a Ryzom pioneer)
--Valentin Lacambre, a reknowned personnality of the French Free Software world
--the non profit organization, representing the community
[The goal of this company will be mutliple:
* to keep the ryzom service active with officials shards (only one shard in a first time)
* to develop the game
* to develop the source code
All decision will be taken by the three actors, each as important as the other, the decision of the non profit organization will be taken by vote by the community.]
- The code and all the game data will be freed (GPL licenses or alikes...)
- The shards will be the same the first three month only (to avoid stopping the service ("which is the necessary time for Valentin Lacambre (a web hosting specialist) to setup a cheaper internal solution") )
- After those three month, the shards will be merged into a single one. So it will be an international single "official" server.
- If i remember it correctly, they were saying that only two devs will be kept from the former Nevrax company.
- The monthly cost of the abo will be 10 euros.
This is what will be done by the company raised.
Now, let's have a look at what will be done by the community (like in every open source project, you will see a lot of active and valuable programmers):
- Develop the now free source code of the Nel engine
- Develop the now free source code of the Ryzom MMORPG.
(RyzoNel will have to validate any changes of the community for them to be applied on the official shards)
- Entertain the shard, and give life to the Ryzom background. Like today, all the GM will be volunteer in the community (elected i think, no real official word about it)
- Eventually, open their own server and propose own services.
- Eventually, create their own mmorpg, using Ryzom materials.
- Propose, discuss and vote Any game orientation on the official shards
- Propose, discuss and vote Any Programmation orientation on the official shards
(The decision of the community, members of the non profit organisation, will count as 1/3 of the real decision)
If i forgot anything, ask, or correct me.
(i can edit this post, if it is clear enought, in order to keep the information in one source) |
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| Snake |
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:03 pm |
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Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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I am one of those long term players who seriously needs some convincing about this project.
After following some of the lengthy and pretty uninformative threads on Ryzom forums I found the link to this thread and I am now even more scared than I ever was before about the future of Ryzom if this project succeeds.
Narf outlined the current proposal plan (with a disclaimer at the top saying that it wasnt actually the plan, huh?) Well is it or isnt it because the contents of that proposal are what fills me with fear.
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[The goal of this company will be mutliple:
* to keep the ryzom service active with officials shards (only one shard in a first time)
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This to me reads that only one of the current shards will be available initially. If this is correct, how will you decide which one?
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- The shards will be the same the first three month only (to avoid stopping the service ("which is the necessary time for Valentin Lacambre (a web hosting specialist) to setup a cheaper internal solution") )
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This seems to contradict the above goal so please clairfy.
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- After those three month, the shards will be merged into a single one. So it will be an international single "official" server.
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This is the scariest of them all and imo one that will lead to a huge exodus of players. A few questions immediately spring to mind...
How will the current OP distribution be handled?
What about all those on the Cho server who went there to "escape" the situation(s) on Arispotle?
How will the temples be distributed? (afaik each server is different after EP2)
How will language and communication be handled?
How will in-game tolerances be adjusted to compensate for the sudden increase in players, i.e kami tolerance, supernodes, bosses etc? (these are all affected greatly by the lower server populations already an increase in population will have a dramatic adverse effect)
There are many many more questions and fears. I consider myself an average type player. Like many others I am wary if not fearful of dramatic changes to the game I have known and loved since beta. I want Ryzom to survive, I want it to evolve but I have seen nothing yet from this project that makes me think you have any real idea of what you are doing or, if successful , anything that makes me think that Ryzom will be "safe in your hands".
Convince me otherwise, please.
Don't even bother wasting mine and your time nitpicking my post and attempting sarcasm or ridicule of selective phrases in my post.
Don't bother getting all defensive and casually throw around comments like "you dont understand". You're right, I don't, that's why I am here posting.
Keep it simple, keep it plain. I am YOUR prospective customer. I am prepared to PAY YOU for a service. |
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| Aprak |
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:01 pm |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Snake wrote:
Don't even bother wasting mine and your time nitpicking my post and attempting sarcasm or ridicule of selective phrases in my post.
Don't worry Snake, that won't happen here ever. Please feel welcome to our forums!
Quotes, bickering and attitudes are very rare here - If they occur at all, the worst ones must be the ones I've delivered so far :mrgreen:
I'm not the right man to answer you questions, but I just wanted to drop a line anyway saying welcome - and that you presence is very appreciated :)
FYI there is an ongoing liquidation process atm, that I fear might keep some of the people who can answer you from being able to reply, at least withing a day or so (we're promised replies from court by tomorrow and my guess is that people are actually there in person).
I'll try kick some of the butts available to me *starts aiming new shiny boot somewhere delicate on Xavier's behind* - stay tuned.
Cheers |
_________________
FREEEEEEEEEEEDOM!
/Aprak
http://cea-history.blogspot.com/
http://kato.homelinux.org/~aprak/ |
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| Narf |
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:22 pm |
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Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 42
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I'll try to answer, after all it's for the sake of both side of the community ^^
This plan is the one that was presented to the prosecutor at first.
BUT, then, the offer had to be improved, for it to had better chances to be accepted and win.
That's why the first offer was released on the forum, because it was no longer the one that will be proposed.
Why don't they gave us those information earlier?
Simple, if they show what they are proposing, it will be easy for other company trying to buy the game to make a better one. It's all about negociation. If we want to have a little chance to win, we can't allow the plan to be known by everybody.
So the proposition i stated is here only as a glimpse of what will be done since it was used as a base for the new proposal.
Okay, some may be afraid of this, but, it cost nothing to us to trust in them since no money will be accepted until they win, and so, we will have the time to read the proposal before giving our money.
Then, i tried to keep the decisions as simple as possible but the fact is that it is not that simple ^^
Valentin Lacambre have possibility to find cheaper solutions for servers but they need time to organize and give a solution to Ryzom.
They say 3 month will be needed, so, there will be 3 month during which the three shards will be kept.
After this, it will have only one shard opened ( but it's not sure yet since it's not clearly stated, sometime it's sayed that it is to keep a relative population on the shard, it will dpends on how much players will play).
After those three month, the shards will be merged.
No detail about it, it will need vote and debate from the community for the decsion to be taken on how to do.
All your question are in the mind of all of us, don't mind to open a thread to discuss about it to find the best way to do it.
but, before giving corpse to your fear, just wait that the real proposal shows up, until then we can't say much about it.
[edit: when i say "we" i'm talking about the community, i'm not one of those that know about the proposal, just someon interested in what is going on =) ] |
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| Neije |
| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:54 pm |
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Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Posts: 50
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Quote: By Snake
I am YOUR prospective customer. I am prepared to PAY YOU for a service.
I'm perhaps very idealistic but you won't be "customer" and you won't really pay "somebody".
Two things :
1) The "server part"
You'll be able to choose if you want to play on the "official server" and therefore pay a fee to allow those servers to run ...
You'll also be able to choose to play on a "private" server ... free server as in 'free of charge' but those servers might use advertisement or anything else ...
As you said this is the service.
2) The " Game development part"
This will be led by the community. Players will give ideas and contribution to make THEIR game live ... Althoug you can also give some money to the project, it won't depend on YOUR money to be developed but on the effort of the community. This is the strength of the "Free Software Community" with free as in 'liberty'.
All the questions regarding the languages apply to this part. I have no clue (for the moment) how this will be handled. But as a great man say :"two heads think better than one" ... and I trust the community to come up with some good suggestions ... perhaps you'll have one, perhaps we don't even need one if they are enough players after the 3 months of transition.
I hope I was clear enough. |
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| Xavier Antoviaque |
| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:05 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
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Snake wrote: I am one of those long term players who seriously needs some convincing about this project.
I join Aprak's welcome, it is too rare to see someone daring to come here and discuss instead of just disagreeing on his side. :)
Quote: This to me reads that only one of the current shards will be available initially. If this is correct, how will you decide which one?
See my answers here:
http://www.ryzom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=141
The best way of proceeding is to come and explain what you think would be the best option. Then others, seeing it, will be able to argue. Eventually, a poll would be run, giving the community standpoint.
Quote: There are many many more questions and fears. I consider myself an average type player. Like many others I am wary if not fearful of dramatic changes to the game I have known and loved since beta. I want Ryzom to survive, I want it to evolve but I have seen nothing yet from this project that makes me think you have any real idea of what you are doing or, if successful , anything that makes me think that Ryzom will be "safe in your hands".
Because that will be in your hands too. |
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Xavier. |
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| Ancha |
| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:09 pm |
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 9
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I am only 2 hours new to this forum but, how can the author of this thread be so unthoughtful in his/her judgement, of a person they most probably never spoken to outside the game?! Please, lets be careful of what we say about people, lets not be hasty without having facts to back our judgements; namely those that carry accusations. It is sad that we so easily cast this things on people, it seems, just for the sake of it or maybe of some minor ingame incident.
Sorry, but I had to butt in on that, because it sounds so unfair. |
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| Aprak |
| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:47 pm |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Ancha,
first of all - welcome to our forums.
There is a certain chance that these people actually did meet. Most of us have spent a long time together (years in some cases), and even if we didn't meet in person, we know each other quite well.
I do however agree to the insensibility, however there has been quite a nasty propaganda war going on for quite a while and I guess we're all a little bit numb and not as sensitive as we should be.
Best Regards |
_________________
FREEEEEEEEEEEDOM!
/Aprak
http://cea-history.blogspot.com/
http://kato.homelinux.org/~aprak/ |
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| Ancha |
| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:53 pm |
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 9
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I thank you for your warm welcome.
Still, this community has a higher goal and desire, that is the most important at the moment. Certainly casting accusations upon one or more individuals, is not the appropriate thing to do at this time, namely when the person seems to have no facts at hand. I am also very happy to see that the same person saw no success in their attempt. |
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