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| Edward |
 Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:10 pm |
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Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 31
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This seemed to belong in a different thread, so I started a new one.
Xavier Antoviaque wrote: Edward wrote: Any word on whether Areae will be open source?
Given Raph Koster's standpoint on VCA, I doubt it. I should find the time to write a public answer to this btw...
I don't know his thoughts on open source, but I wouldn't take this posting in itself to indicate an unwillingness to OS his work. I can see someone who advocates BSD licenses over GPL taking this position.
He seems to have misunderstood several points of the Social Contract. For example, he apparently believes we want to force proprietary MORPG's to release their software as open source. That's a very different thing from advocating that they do so voluntarily. |
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| Xavier Antoviaque |
| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:32 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 396
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Edward wrote: I don't know his thoughts on open source, but I wouldn't take this posting in itself to indicate an unwillingness to OS his work. I can see someone who advocates BSD licenses over GPL taking this position.
I don't know either; I hope I'm wrong, but I've read it as "if everybody can reuse, alter and redistribute our code, it will be hard for us to make money out of it." Especially when you look at what he says about grey shards (emulators):
"Whee! Gray shards for everyone. I am actually a bit of a sneaking fan of gray shards, because of my mud background. But at the same time, gray shards can be very damaging to a smaller service… plus, what stops a Microsoft from cloning Puzzle Pirates?"
Quote: He seems to have misunderstood several points of the Social Contract. For example, he apparently believes we want to force proprietary MORPG's to release their software as open source. That's a very different thing from advocating that they do so voluntarily.
Yep. I've copy/pasted below an answer I sent him by email; I intended to rework it a bit before posting it here (adding arguments and depth), but since I haven't found the time yet, here it is. To date, I haven't got any answer from him.
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Hello Raph,
I've read your blog entry about the Virtual Citizenship Association, and, as one of its members, I would like to discuss some parts of it with you, and give you my point of view.
Quote: Virtual Citizenship Association
The Virtual Citizenship Association appears to be a recently founded group to promulgate rights for virtual world users. There isn’t a rights document per se up there yet, but it does start out by bluntly declaring that “living in a virtual world gives us the status of citizen there,” which under strict definitions seems a bit overreaching.
Hum, I don't see why this is overreaching; the definition, from the Legal Encyclopedia says: "Those who, under the constitution and laws of [...] a particular community or of a [...] country, owe allegiance and are entitled to the enjoyment of all civil rights that accrue to those who qualify for that status."
Quote: Their social contract includes the following points:
[list][*]Defending citizen rights, which includes participatory democracy.
[*]Online universes that are free software, public standard protocols, and under GNU licenses.
[*]Data related to a citizen as being property of the citizen — including freedom of exchange, download, etc.
[*]“We will defend the right for everyone to create new game servers, with identical data (except personal data), without any fee.”
Whew.
Yes, this is a lot. But before entering the details, let me remind of something important which may not appear as clearly as it should in the social contract, due to the history of the project.
The Social Contract basically lists how we would handle a world, if we had one in our hands; remember that the VCA is born from the Ryzom.org initiative, so the Social Contract is very similar.
As you pointed out, a lot of these points actually describe a given model. If we were to make an analogy with the real world, we would have written the constitution of our country, not the Declaration of Human Rights.
But let's look at some of your concerns with it, it is still worth an answer:
Quote: 1. Some online worlds might not be suited for participatory democracy.
True; we are not here to prevent people from playing in a virtual world where there isn't any democracy, if this what they wish. However, if the users of such a virtual world are complaining about it, we would be here to help.
Quote: 2. If all worlds are free and open completely, that does make it harder to make a profit, which is probably a goal we wish to preserve in the overall ecology of virtual worlds.
Untrue, it is like saying people can't make a profit of websites because the Web is a standard. If we were to use Free Software and standards more often in the MMORPG industry, perhaps we could stop reinventing the wheel every time we develop a game, and actually concentrate on the world itself.
As for having all the content of a world free and open, it's only a goal, it's not our role to force anyone. We are just willing to inform ("advocate") the use of free licenses for content.
Quote: 3. Data being citizen property actually puts a HUGE burden on world operators. Now they could be sued for losing it, for example. Or they might not be able to extract certain sorts of metrics from it.
True, but this is only recognizing what should be an evidence. IRL, if I spend two hours creating a chair and a guy breaks it, even by mistake, I expect him to reimburse me or to give me another chair. Also, if I don't want my personal habits to be recorded or extracted as metrics, this is an elementary right no one should oppose. We know how personal online worlds can become.
Quote: 4.Does the freedom of exchange mean eBaying gold? ‘Cause that’s how I read it… Not all users want this — shouldn’t instead the contract preserve variety and diversity in worlds instead?
Personally, I don't like ebaying gold either. But my question is: how do you prevent it?
Quote: 5. Whee! Gray shards for everyone. I am actually a bit of a sneaking fan of gray shards, because of my mud background. But at the same time, gray shards can be very damaging to a smaller service… plus, what stops a Microsoft from cloning Puzzle Pirates?
True, but it is more often the contrary; one big company owning a big universe, which different communities can't adapt to their needs. If it were that dangerous, Free Software would already have died of forks, or of commercial cloning. Luckily, experience proves this is more often a fear than a real danger.
Quote: All in all, not all that well thought out, I think… I’d prefer any such social contract to focus more on how operators have to treat players, than on forcing particular business models on operators.
Definitely. Not all is well thought out yet, for sure. We are only at the beginning of the work, and defining more precisely how operators have to treat players is one of these important tasks.
On this subject, you have already done a lot of quality work on the Declaration of the Rights of Avatars, and I'd like that we build upon it. Can we use it as a base document, to discuss and amend, and eventually integrate it into our social contract?
Also, will you join us in the discussion? |
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| recentcoin |
| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:47 pm |
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Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 55
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If you're a server operator who is not allowed to collect metrics on anyone, how do you:
1) know when to scale your world?
2) monitor utilization?
3) protect under age players from pedophiles?
These are just 3 things I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure that there are more, but my dinner just arrived.
RC |
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| Xavier Antoviaque |
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:13 am |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
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recentcoin wrote: If you're a server operator who is not allowed to collect metrics on anyone, how do you: 1) know when to scale your world? 2) monitor utilization?
I don't think there is anything wrong with collecting metrics about a population; governments do it all the time IRL, and privacy/property are already enforced there (well, at least it is supposed to be the case ;p). The thing is that, in most cases, what you need is anonymous data, averages over a large population; knowing that the average income is 1500€/month doesn't tell me what your income is.
Now, the next question is "to compute the average income, you need to know how much every person earns; how do you get the global metrics if you don't know that?"
IRL, it isn't the government itself which computes these numbers; there are dedicated/independent organizations which are doing it. Then the government uses the numbers these organizations are releasing to take their decisions.
Quote: 3) protect under age players from pedophiles?
I'm not sure I understand the link with metrics; can you be more specific? |
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| recentcoin |
| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:39 am |
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Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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As a former security coordinator of a large active gaming clan, I can tell you that I have reported 15 separate individuals that either made an inappropriate comment to an underage child in our clan or were "overheard" doing so by a member of our clan.
Most parents know enough about the internet to tell their kids to stay out of chat rooms and not to respond to IM's from anyone they don't know. What most parents do not seem to be aware of, especially with the rise of internet enabled gaming consoles, is that most games have chat functionality built in. For the price of a popular game, pedophiles now have access to large numbers of children in a format most parents are neither aware of nor have a way to monitor.
My personal feeling is, based on my own experiences, that any communication to or from underage children should be strictly monitored by the server operators. Anything that's inappropriate from an adult should be immediately reported to the proper authorities for investigation and/or prosecution. |
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| Xavier Antoviaque |
| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:44 am |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
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recentcoin wrote: My personal feeling is, based on my own experiences, that any communication to or from underage children should be strictly monitored by the server operators. Anything that's inappropriate from an adult should be immediately reported to the proper authorities for investigation and/or prosecution.
I'm not sure of this, but it doesn't seem inappropriate to have specific TOS and policies for underage users. SL has specific areas where only children are allowed, and some online worlds designed for underage players are preventing the issue by not implementing IMs (which could be a specific restriction on underage accounts when it is already implemented).
But I'm still a bit uncomfortable in monitoring everything they talk about; underage players could like some privacy too. But I can't think of a similar situation IRL which would help knowing what is done in such cases. If somebody wants to add his own 5 cents to the discussion... ;p |
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| noxdraconis |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:01 am |
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Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 7
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Just a couple of thoughts on this topic.
I guess devs like collect metrics for a number of reasons, but as far as I can tell the big one is game balancing and game tuning. I know in CoH/CoV (the game that I am currently playing) they do a lot data mining in the name of game balance, I suspect most other games are the same. Problem is, the way the devs usually adjust game balance is by nerfing some class or item or spell, etc that they feel is too powerful. This is fine in the in the We-Make-It, You-Play-It model that currently holds sway (ie. you don't like it, quit paying you sub), but I imagine the VCA supporting a more conscensus driven approach to game world administration. In this model, decisions to make significant adjustments to the game should be vetted and approved by the player base as a whole. Thus data mining should only be necessary in areas where the players and developers agree that some adjustment is necessary (beleive me, if some class or race even appears to be overpowered, players of every other race and class will whine about it incesantly!) and when it is done, the results should be made public (not kept privately by the devs and cryptically refered to in support of some change that otherwise appears to come out of the blue).
To sum up -- sorry, I went a bit long in the last paragraph -- I think in a consensus driven world, the need for metrics would either be completely or significantly replaced by community input and decission making. When necessary, it should be the community that requests specific metrics and then acts on that information.
nox |
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| Xavier Antoviaque |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:51 am |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
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noxdraconis wrote: To sum up -- sorry, I went a bit long in the last paragraph -- I think in a consensus driven world, the need for metrics would either be completely or significantly replaced by community input and decission making. When necessary, it should be the community that requests specific metrics and then acts on that information.
Probably true, even if the community can best choose if it has all the numbers it needs to. Also, I think the question was more general here: if we are to defend virtual users' rights in general, what are the solutions we can suggest? |
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| burlingk |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:05 pm |
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Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 10
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Xavier Antoviaque wrote:
I'm not sure of this, but it doesn't seem inappropriate to have specific TOS and policies for underage users. SL has specific areas where only children are allowed, and some online worlds designed for underage players are preventing the issue by not implementing IMs (which could be a specific restriction on underage accounts when it is already implemented).
But I'm still a bit uncomfortable in monitoring everything they talk about; underage players could like some privacy too. But I can't think of a similar situation IRL which would help knowing what is done in such cases. If somebody wants to add his own 5 cents to the discussion... ;p
A lot of companies now are avoiding the subject by just not allowing people under 13 to have accounts. Most MMO's are starting to go that direction these days.
Also, a thing about security and privacy:
Peopel who are hired to handle security, are generaly also hired not to share what they hear unless there is a crime comitted. Some even go as far as to say unless a specific kind of crime is comitted.
Real simple, it is possible to have security and privacy, as long as you trust those providing one to respect the other. |
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| daraknor |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:21 pm |
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Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 25
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I don't know that 'inappropriate comments' are actually a crime, considering a large amount of the geographic world, including industrialized countries like Japan and France, consider age 13/14 to be the age sexual freedom. I think trying to enforce US laws in the US makes sense, but trying to enforce those laws in Brazil, Chile, etc are simply misguided at best.
Regarding nerfing of equipment, it is easier to bring one item down than all other items up. Worse than the level treadmill by players is the content treadmill by developers. Nerfing is viable, and so is enhancing, but enhancing is a long term decision and nerfing is a short term one. WoW enhanced all classes twice now, and the new talent trees were generally better than the previous ones. In a PvP or competitive game, nerfing needs to happen.
Using metrics to track players in game for client/server systems is necessary (or no server). Using metrics to track players out of game should be considered a violation of privacy. Websites often ask for my birthday, and that bit of information plus my name is all that is required to do a full background check including your elementary school grades. |
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| burlingk |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:29 pm |
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Joined: 20 Jan 2007
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daraknor wrote: I don't know that 'inappropriate comments' are actually a crime, considering a large amount of the geographic world, including industrialized countries like Japan and France, consider age 13/14 to be the age sexual freedom. I think trying to enforce US laws in the US makes sense, but trying to enforce those laws in Brazil, Chile, etc are simply misguided at best..
Don't know where you get your info, but the age of concent in Japan has been 18 for quite a while, and the government started cracking down hard on sex crimes several years ago as well.
Remember, the sterio types you hear are not always accurate. And if you are wondering where I get my info about Japan, I am sitting less than an hour from Tokyo right now. |
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| daraknor |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:45 pm |
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Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 25
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It was something I was vaguely aware of for several years, I think Great teacher Onizuka anime was one of the sources that prompted inquiry. I had also spoken with several people who visited Japan. I got into a discussion about this a few years ago, with vague references, and I had to look up the age of consent to verify. Also please keep in mind that 2 states in the US have age of consent at age 14. Hawaii and one other southern state. (Kentucky?)
I should add that in Japan many consider the situation and people who engage in it deplorable. I have heard (from visiting people) that some women on the subway will claim they were groped and blackmail prominent businessmen threatening to ruin their lives if they don't pay. (Usually from a woman over 20)
Here are some references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_k%C5%8Dsai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia
You are probably referring to the prefecture based laws mentioned in the second article regarding "immoral acts." |
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| daraknor |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:51 pm |
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Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 25
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Correction, Hawaii changed their age of consent to 16.
Here is an international summary, including the laws that a US citizen must comply with while traveling internationally (over 18, similar to traveling across state lines)
http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/Age_of_consent |
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| burlingk |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:30 pm |
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Joined: 20 Jan 2007
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daraknor wrote: Correction, Hawaii changed their age of consent to 16.
Here is an international summary, including the laws that a US citizen must comply with while traveling internationally (over 18, similar to traveling across state lines)
http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/Age_of_consent
A lot of the states that had younger ages have started boosting them. The federal government still refrains from setting federal laws on the issue, but has started strongarming state governments through the all mighty power of the federal spending dollar.
^^;; |
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| daraknor |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:53 pm |
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Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 25
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I'm likely to leave the US soon, more related to policies of killing children than saying when they are old enough to make decisions about their own bodies. I noticed one of the states had a "2003 pending legislature" going from 14 to 16. US also pressured Costa Rica into raising their age of consent to 18. Strange how the Fed decides these things.
I think New Hampshire "Live free or die" is the only state that doesn't accept fed highway money. |
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| Xavier Antoviaque |
| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:31 pm |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 387
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burlingk wrote: Peopel who are hired to handle security, are generaly also hired not to share what they hear unless there is a crime comitted. Some even go as far as to say unless a specific kind of crime is comitted.
Real simple, it is possible to have security and privacy, as long as you trust those providing one to respect the other.
I have been working in the MMORPG industry for 5 years now, seen different companies, people and situations, and you would be surprised how easily some people step over the line. It's not that the companies or the people are bad, it's just that it's really easy to get emotional, or personally involved in some conflicts. And I'm not even talking of the cases where the company has to be "defended".
I can't disclose details on my personal experience, as it is of course something contracts forbids an employee or an ex-employee to reveal publicly. But it would be interesting to setup some kind of feedback form, where players having difficulties with MMORPG companies on these kind of subjects could tell their story, to start looking at specific cases. Unless you think this is a silly idea, I'll try to find some time to implement this, I'd be interested to see what would be the outcome. |
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